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Post by Eyalan on Aug 2, 2006 15:16:09 GMT -5
There are lot's of things in the books of Harry Potter that scream 'Lord of the Rings'.. That's not totally weird, Rowling said so herself she liked the Lord of the Rings books very much, so it could be easily have been a source of inspiration for the following examples: Shelob - Aragog Giant inkfish at the entrance of Moria - Giant Inkfish at Black Lake Gandalf - Dumbledore Swamp with dead people - Swamp with Necrot- things (not sure what the english translation is, but if you have been reading the books, I'm sure you'll understand ) Now I have a theory based on that regarding the death of Dumbledore in book 6. I think it is a lot like the death of Gandalf. We al know Gandalf didn't turned out to be death at all. Yes, you know where I might be going now.... Could it be, that Dumbledore isn't really death? After all, the curse he was given, was not supposed to give him a boost up high and back, like Dumbledore did... He should have dropped deadt right away. And then he fell... like Gandalf did.
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Post by Erana on Aug 2, 2006 15:43:36 GMT -5
There are many similarities! Just think of Harry, the only person who is able to kill Voldemort, and Frodo, the only person able to carry that ring to Mount Doom!
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Post by Haldir on Aug 2, 2006 18:29:27 GMT -5
Aye I know this sounds harsh, but Rowling really copied many of Tolkien's ideas and she was very unsubtle about it too ...
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Post by Eyalan on Aug 2, 2006 22:37:11 GMT -5
There are rumours going on that Harry Potter is going to die in the next/last book, but since Frodo was saved, I'm not worried at all
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Post by Boromir on Aug 3, 2006 1:00:28 GMT -5
It is not kind of copying his ideas, Haldir. Just she has made some regulations I think. Since the setting is different. This is how rpg books are written. For ex, If I would write about something, I am gonna be affected by LOTR or some other books I have read in my life. It is not so true to make comparisons about the fantasy books. They are all the same in some parts. it is for certain that in every book elfs had a place in different forms. But it is an elf at the end.
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Post by alexei on Aug 3, 2006 11:36:45 GMT -5
Dumbledore coming back? It's a possibility. I really hope he doesn't though. I read a lot of comic books, and with comic books it's hard to go a year without a somewhat major character dieing. But then maybe a year to ten later (depending on how anxious the writers are) they pop back to life. So now anytime a superhero dies there's no need to fret, just set your timer and *poof* Captain So-And-So is back to fight crime!
Now, I realise the never ending series of, say, Green Lantern isn't the same as the set length of Harry Potter, but by bringing Dumbledore back it would look like Rowling bowing to fan pressure, and that's not something I like to see a creator do. In fact, if Rowling were to end the series in total disaster I'd be very impressed. It would make the books look much more serious and would leave a lasting impression readers.
But, as an aside, I feel very sorry for JK. There's so much speculation going around someone will read the book and see that what they thought was going to happen happened, which sucks for her.
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Post by Haldir on Aug 3, 2006 13:33:15 GMT -5
It is not kind of copying his ideas, Haldir. Just she has made some regulations I think. Since the setting is different. This is how rpg books are written. For ex, If I would write about something, I am gonna be affected by LOTR or some other books I have read in my life. It is not so true to make comparisons about the fantasy books. They are all the same in some parts. it is for certain that in every book elfs had a place in different forms. But it is an elf at the end. of course everyone who had read LotR would be effected by it. but JK just took ideas from tolkien and VERY unsubtley copied them! and like Eyalan said ... since Frodo didn't die, harry probably wont either I have a strong feeling that Dumbledore might just pull a Gandalf
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Post by Eyalan on Aug 3, 2006 14:06:13 GMT -5
"Pull a Gandalf" Lovely quote! I have to agree with Alexei on th edisaster ending. It would be very impressive and will probable shut up the fans who are speculating so much it is getting kind of sick.
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Post by Telpeath on Aug 5, 2006 22:19:48 GMT -5
All is very true. Rowling really did copy Tolkien!
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Post by alexei on Aug 5, 2006 23:40:52 GMT -5
I think people getting angry over authors using aspects of Tolkien is silly. He created a lot of the structure for modern fantasy. Say someone were to write a fantasy novel and invented a new race of cannon fodder to replace orcs. Orcs are such a staple in the fantasy genre that they require a minimal suspension of disbelief. Having some made up creatures require the reader to forget what they think should be there (that is, orcs) and pretend whatever is there is normal. That's just one example, of course, but probably one of the strongest. Getting insulted because Rowling's stories show similarities to Tolkien's doesn't make much sense to me. (I'm just guessing about the "insulted" part. The way some messages here were written seem to imply it, but it could just be me ) I'm certainly not the most observant or intuitive reader out there, but before this thread I didn't notice many similarities between Tolkien and Rowling. I would hardly call the similarities unsubtle. If Dumbledore were to come back I would change my oppinion, but it hasn't happened yet (and I cetainly hope it doesn't). As for the other similarities mentioned: Shelob/Aragog - A lot of people are scared of spiders. To choose a giant spider over a giant lobster seems natural to me. It's one of those "suspension of disbelief" things. Giant inkfish - There are stories in ancient mythology with giant squid/octopi so both Rowling's and Tolkien's use isn't surprising. Gandalf/Dumbledore - This is definately the strongest similarity. Rowling was probably influenced here. Swamps - this is pretty much the same as the inkfish and spiders: Swamps are scary, the things in the swamps are scary. Here me out now! I'm not saying she didn't copy anything. What I'm saying is she didn't use anything very substantial. A lot of inspiration probably did come from Tolkien and other authors, but she managed to create some decent, fun stories that certainly aren't as complex as LotR, but just as enjoyable for most of the population. Instead of making up a bunch of stupid ideas and trying to get readers to enjoy them she took things already in the minds of readers and made them work again.
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Post by Eyalan on Aug 6, 2006 6:17:35 GMT -5
I like how you put that, Alexei. And you are right. Fantasy only works when it's recognisable. What's a lobster?
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Post by alexei on Aug 6, 2006 11:37:46 GMT -5
Yeah, it's kind of weird how something called fantasy has specific things in it that people find normal. Tolkien seems to have invented a lot of archetypes. Looking around DumbledoreIsNotDead.com they just added "New Conclusions" two days ago. A quotation from the page: Haldir really nailed it with that "pull a Gandalf" line . Here's a link to the Dumbledore site. I'm sure a lot of you have been here already. www.dumbledoreisnotdead.comYou don'tnow what a lobster is? Huh. Well, here's a link to explain all! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster
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Post by Haldir on Aug 6, 2006 18:58:57 GMT -5
LOL yeah I agree with you ... but I suppose that the "Wise Old Man" Archetype was only actually really obviously used by Tolkien ... but the thing is, she describes his appearance almost exactly as Tolkien does ... *sigh*
And don't Dementors and Ringwraiths have some kind of connection as well? Sure, they do different things ... but still...
And the Dark Lord's downfall in LotR and HP and his spirit lingering on in a specifically chosen object is probably the most similar thing out of the two. And a chosen person (main character) trying to destroy this/these object(s) is also kind of a very similar storyline ... I am POSITIVE that Tolkien "influenced" Rowling here.
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Post by alexei on Aug 6, 2006 22:06:33 GMT -5
I'm not denying that there are a lot of things that say Tolkien in Rowling's books. The fact that the Dementors resemble Ringwraiths in looks isn't as bothersome as having them perform a similar task would be. Most storyline related similarities are the archetypes in fantasy. All powerful evil villains, spirits lingering on...
I think the important thing to rmember is that Rowling doesn't seem to be writing to create a new world. Tolkien totally created Middle Earth and the people in it. The main purposes of his writing was to make this world seem real and give it a rich history. Rowling focuses more on the characters and plots she has created in an isolated manor. It seems she created characters and then built the world around them. Tolkien wrote bottom-up and Rowling writes top-down.
If Rowling's focus were to create an in depth world with it's own unique history and cultures I would be peeved that she had taken things from Tolkien. However she's more about creating cool stories that keep the reader turning pages.
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Post by Eyalan on Aug 7, 2006 2:09:59 GMT -5
It works for me! Thanks for the lobster bit, Alexei!
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