The Origin of Orcs

[Haldir]

Yes, so I have started this very same thread on three different forums (a few people may have noticed)... it would be nice to get as many people's opinions as possible. And please don't disagree with others' opinions if you have only ever watched the movies.

I think we all need a new, fresh discussion about this... there used to be a thread about the same thing, but it has been long abandoned.

So many people assume that Tolkien's Orcs originated from Elves that fell into darkness... but they are not. Yes, I used to assume that too... but that was before I properly read the books.

It's just a theory. I don't remember reading anything that said specifically that "Orcs were Elves that fell into darkness." It was only hinted in the Silmarillion that the Elves were taken by Melkor... but it wasn't a hard fact. Remember that Melkor made Orcs in mockery of Elves. It doesn't mean that they were made of Elves.

Most people just follow The Fellowship of the Ring MOVIE when Saruman said "They were Elves once...tortured, and mutilated...a ruined and terrible form of life...now perfected." But as we all well know, the films are littered with changed events and inaccuracy.

And.. Tolkien himself confirmed that Orcs were not bred with Elves.

Christopher Tolkien put it in The Silmarillion.

Letter No. 144:

Orcs ... are nowhere clearly stated to be of any particular origin. But since they are servants of the Dark Power, and later of Sauron, neither of whom could, or would, produce living things, they must be 'corruptions'. They are not based on direct experience of mine; but owe, I suppose, a good deal to the goblin tradition (goblin is used as a translation in The Hobbit, where orc only occurs once, I think), especially as it appears in George MacDonald, except for the soft feet which I never believed in.

Letter No. 153:

As for other points. I think I agree about the 'creation by evil'. But you are more free with the word 'creation' than I am. Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true actually of the Orcs - who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator's right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a 'mystery', not without pointers to the solution).

Later in Letter No. 153:

I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them.

Thoughts?

[Vincent Valentine]

The orcs weren't elves. The Avari early when Middle Earth was young, Melkor took Many Avari to be slaves, i might be mistaken.

[Haldir]

That's what I said... the Orcs were not Elves.

But Melkor taking the Avari as slaves does not prove that the Orcs did not come from them...

[Eyalan]

Unfortunately I only have the Dutch quotes... but he wrote in the Silmarillon the orcs came from elves. However, later on he announced they were made out of humans or beasts perhaps. He never finised the whole bit to an end. He was planning on changing the silmarillon, but unfortunately he never got to that. I think we can assume the whole 'orcs came from elves' theory is therefore not exactly true. What it must have been, we'll perhaps never know.

[Vincent Valentine]

The later version may have been part human and part something...else.

[Eyalan]

They must have been. How else do orcs get orc-babies instead of normal kids?

[Haldir]

This is a bit off-topic, but... I wonder what orc-babies look like.... *shudder* And it's not like Orcs would handle their babies with care and hug them in warm blankets and stuff. Heh, they probably threw them around and shoved all the orc-babies in cages until they grew up.

Yeah, I'm tired... don't mind me and my stupid post. 3:25 am, ftw.

[FËÅNØR ÐÆ]

eru said:

The orcs weren't elves. The Avari early when Middle Earth was young, Melkor took Many Avari to be slaves, i might be mistaken.

in The Book of Lost Tales it says ''Orcs were made of stone and slime through the sorcery of Morgoth'' "bred from the heats and slimes of the earth"

but in the silmarillion he's talking about orcs being mutilated and tortured forms of elves, because morgoth wasnt capable of creating life on his own anymore. that's the version I like better...it's a bit more consistent, as melkor hated the elves.

but later on, in the lord of the rings, there's thousands of orcs fighting rohan and gondolin. you can hardly assume their mutilated elves made into orcs, if orcs dont have any means to reproduce themselves.

saruman's uruk-hai were cross-breeds with men. that's fairly certain. whatever the origin of the original orc, the uruk-hai were a great combination of both species. the orginal orcs couldnt bear the sun, but the uruk-hai could, and had longer stamina. eg, they had the best properties of men and orcs combined.

it's just one of the open questions that keep popping up in tolkiens works. if he didnt finish it off properly himself, there's no way we can, even if we talk about it for a year and look through all his correspondation. that wouldnt do us any good, coz if he didnt know it, we wont find it out by looking at what he wrote.

anyways, to get back goblins back in...cant tell you where I got it, but I've always had the idea that goblins were native creatures to middle earth, and that melkor somehow combined goblins and elves to create orcs.

but in the end it's all speculation. if tolkien didnt know, we wont know.

[Tulmind]

Wow... that's pretty in depth. But I do remeber Melkor hating elves a lot so it would make sense if he did tourture elves into orcs. I wish that wasn't the case though. I just like the thought of them being made from stone and slime.

[Haldir]

Well just because he hated Elves it doesn't mean he tortured them into foul beings... he could have just made Orcs by his own hand just to mock the Elves, but the problem with that is that Morgoth can't give life. So it could have been that Orcs were made from mutilated Elves...

[Tulmind]

Never!!!!!!!!!!!!!